Designing Human-First Healthcare with Lindsey Lehman of Mayo Clinic

In this episode of The Interconnectedness of Things, we sit down with Associate Administrator for Hospital Operations at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Lindsey Lehman, to explore how data, design thinking, and compassion are reshaping hospital operations. From the challenges of streamlining workflows to the nuances of patient-centered design, Lindsey shares firsthand insights from inside one of the world’s leading medical institutions.

Lindsey walks us through the complexities of modern hospital operations from coordinating frontline care to optimizing behind-the-scenes logistics. She highlights how systems-level thinking and operational design can reduce friction, improve patient experiences, and empower care teams to work more effectively. Her reflections on data storytelling and cross-functional collaboration reveal the subtle yet powerful ways that insight and empathy can transform large-scale healthcare delivery.

The conversation culminates in a forward-looking discussion on artificial intelligence in healthcare. Rather than replacing human expertise, Lindsey emphasizes the importance of keeping the “human in the loop,” where AI augments, not overrides, clinical decision-making. It's a nuanced take on the future of innovation: one where curiosity, humility, and compassion remain at the heart of progress.

Whether you're passionate about improving complex systems, intrigued by hospital innovation, or curious about how AI and human insight can coexist, this episode delivers both strategic depth and human warmth.

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Transcript

Emily Nava: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Interconnectedness of Things. I'm your host, Emily Nava. I'm joined here with Dr. Hudson where we explore the hidden networks, ideas and systems that keep healthcare moving. I'm thrilled to have Lindsay Lehman with us today. She's the associate administrator for hospital operations at Mayo Clinic.

In Rochester and she plays a key role in helping one of the most respected healthcare institutions in the world keeps its operations running smoothly. Lindsay, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me. To kick things off for those who may not be familiar with your work, can you tell us a little bit about your role at Mayo Clinic and what drives your approach to hospital o operations?

Lindsey Lehman: Sure. And thank you for the kind introduction. Always like to start with. I'm very proud to work at Mayo Clinic and at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, and I love the hospital. We are not [00:01:00] perfect, so I'm hopeful today's. Conversation will reflect and I'll be very transparent and honest about where I think we do well and where I think we can do better.

And just say we're always looking to learn. So thanks for the chance to dive in on these important topics. Absolutely. As you said, my current title is Associate Administrator of Hospital Operations. Our. Titles, like a few other things tend to be a bit different at Mayo, so I'll try to give a little more context to that.

I am the senior most administrator responsible for the Rochester Hospital practice and partner directly with our medical director and our vice chair of nursing, and I report directly to the Chief Administrative Officer of Mayo Clinic in Rochester. One of the things I love about the hospital and healthcare administration is that really no two days are alike.

So while a simple question, I rarely have a simple or good, in my opinion, answer to tell us about your role, but I have the privilege of leading a large and [00:02:00] talented hospital administrative team. That is responsible for both the core service lines of the hospital, critical care, trauma center, emergency department, but also of course census management, patient flow, pharmacy operations, right?

Many other things that kind of fit within that. Ultimately, our triad leadership team is responsible for everything that happens in the hospital practice, even though certain specialties and support services really report up differently. So I'll get into this later, but we're a matrix organization. So the direct reporting just isn't always there, but the responsibility remains is how we think about that.

And this certainly includes. Quality, safety experience, right? Our non-negotiables finances, patient and staff experience alike. Innovation, campus master planning facilities work you name it. It's a very broad, all encompassing job, which again I find to be a lot of fun and a huge privilege.

But it, there is a lot of [00:03:00] weight to that privilege. I like to say. At Mayo, we're really fortunate to have a lot of resources. By that dedicated teams. So while I just listed off a very impressive list of functions and responsibilities, we're very fortunate to have people who think about all of those things full-time.

And. Most organizations cannot afford to have that type of dedicated structure. So I don't consider my role completely separate or unlike other hospital administrators, but anytime I'm describing it, I do feel like it's a caveat that I should call out, that I get to focus on different things or certain things because of some of those resources.

So just a few examples would be dedicated leaders who partner closely with us. To lead patient experience finance. Data and analytics, right? We could go down the path. Communications is a big one 'cause I think we're gonna dive into that. And as I mentioned, facilities work and others, but the trick right, is to connect all of those dots and [00:04:00] I feel that is a big part of my responsibility, keeping everyone focused on the vision.

Not just this year, but 2030 beyond priorities for the hospital practice and how that fits within the practice for us and the shields of Mayo Clinic. And then really aware of the various work streams. We have more than 1300 active daily staff beds. More than 350,000 patient days on an annual basis or just under for 2024.

No small feat. In terms of my personal experience approach to hospital operations, I think that was the tail of your question. I'm really personally draw drawn to all the ways that technology and innovation can really help us blend right that desire for excellent patient care. And yet do it in a significantly different way that allows us to be less dependent on bigger teams and more people which is the trajectory we know healthcare has been on.

So I think we all know the trends for our workforce, but I really believe that's the best way forward without sacrificing [00:05:00] quality and experience and ultimately really meeting and exceeding the needs of our patients. So that's why I was drawn to the topic for today and look forward to diving in further.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: Holy. That was amazing, Lindsay. Thank you for sharing all of that. And it's an impressive how much you have under your purview. I think a great place to potentially start is just a, as we're thinking about and trying to be respectful of the name of the podcast, the interconnectedness of all the things, what were some of those key milestones?

And you and I met back. Oh, I don't wanna age either one of us. But back when you were in your undergrad and you progressed since then through graduate school and had this wonderful career. As you've matured into this role, has the siloing been more important or being able to see the bigger picture been more important in those key milestones throughout your career?[00:06:00]

Lindsey Lehman: Let me try to hit on a couple of things there. Just for the benefit of our audience, I did go straight through undergrad, grad school into the administrative fellowship here at Mayo Clinic. That's what brought me to Mayo and to Rochester, and I'm celebrating 10 years with Mayo Clinic this year.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: Congratulations.

Lindsey Lehman: So all of my tenure at Mayo has been in practice operations. First on the outpatient side. This is gonna lead me to one of my key milestones that has helped shape kind of systems thinking and my operational leadership. But about six months prior to COVID, I became the administrator here for critical care.

Now at most organizations, you do not have an administrator of critical care. But we have nearly, we have 230 beds that are just intensive care at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, plus an impressive tele EICU, and, many other programs that kind of fall under that. But this is a bit of an obvious one, right?

Key milestone, pivotal point in my career. I would not be in the [00:07:00] position I'm in today in my personal opinion, if not for that experience, so I would never wish it on us again. I had to do a lot of things or got to do a lot of things, gain a lot of experience that otherwise I would not have. So you know, a few examples.

Again, not only learning critical care quickly, extensively. But because of the pandemic within the hospital practice, I found myself doing other things that really allowed me to learn that broader hospital and just broader practice picture much more quickly and extensively than I think I would've otherwise.

This was including a national ventilator sharing program, setting up our statewide triage network as we thought about hospital capacity, and that was something I, both of those I got to do with my physician partner at the time. And actually now we get to lead the hospital practice together. But.

Internally many other things establishing a visitor protocol screening system the list could [00:08:00] go on, but that's really something I have to call out because again how I think about how the hospital works and how I think about how the hospital needs to interact with the outpatient practice, the surgical practice, primary care on down the list is really very impacted by my experience.

Our experience as an organization and all the things that we're still unpacking, if you will, from the pandemic and what we're dealing with post pandemic. The other thing that I touched on there is being an administrative fellow, so I have to call out that, that is a. Key milestone and one that has shaped me significantly both as a leader, right?

But as I think about systems thinking and have a broader perspective, I would say than maybe some in the short amount of time that I mentioned, I've been with Mayo. The fellowship and any administrative fellowship in my opinion, is really the ideal place to kick off a career in healthcare Administration is not the only way.

I am biased because I did it. But [00:09:00] I really believe that it's an accelerated way to build your network, really understand the inner workings of an organization, the interdependencies. Coupled with exceptional mentorship, support, and frankly, challenging assignments. That really require both strategic and operational skill.

So during my two year experience, I spent time in research administration, finance. Strategy, population health. I was an interim operations manager for the division of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine in addition to many other stretch assignments and projects. So I truly credit. That experience and having an opportunity to gain in-depth hands-on in so many different areas of the organization for the lion's share of my systems integration and systems thinking abilities.

Most people, it takes them half of their career, right? To spend time in the areas I just mentioned. And so while compressed meaningful nonetheless, but those are the things that I would point to. And an [00:10:00] organization of this size. That's everything, right? Your network, your understanding, your willingness to say, I don't know but I can pick up the phone and call someone who does and get pointed in the right direction quickly.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: Yeah. To build off of that. And thank you for sharing all those great milestones. It really seems the fellowship served for you as a, as an accelerant, a catalyst for understanding how each of these different functions work together and specialize at the same time. And then that helps you elevate your career to being a bit of an orchestrator conductor.

Today, you're working in a matrix organization, but you're conducting these different areas. I'm interested that, did I get that right by the way? Is that a good way to, to phrase it? I think that's a good way to phrase it. Cool. We'll use it then. Record it. Oh wait, we're already recording. The other thing that I, it made me think about was not only are you getting the perspective based on the exposure to these different areas but there's some critical [00:11:00] decision making that comes in.

So as you're developing this robust experience over your decade career so far, and being at such, esteemed position how is that decision making done? And then what role might data play in that decision making? Good question. And I'm drawing on the orchestrator kind of analogy, so I will go with that.

Lindsey Lehman: So I'll try to hit on. A couple themes and then really come back solidly to, when it comes to making decision making in hospital operations. What role really does data play for me and my team? Because I'm excited to talk about that and frankly, brag on a couple members of my team. But I do think you're hitting on something that was so valuable in the fellowship that I.

Probably did not articulate as well as I would've liked, which is you're in these rotations for a short amount of time. Three, four months is typical. Maybe [00:12:00] the interim gets a little longer but you become quickly quite good at realizing that you don't always have all the information you would like to have and you can't hold up certain decisions or frankly, your team from making progress.

Until you check every box, until you have all the information. As an early careerist, and as I said, I didn't have other full-time experience, Mayo Clinic is the only place I've ever worked full-time. I struggled with that greatly. As a fellow, I. Dr. Hudson, you remember this? I am a detail oriented person.

I think that serves me well, for the most part.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: Highly thoughtful

Lindsey Lehman: but I struggled, right? To say we still should look at this, or we should pull this extra data point in. And I often had people say we have a lot. Let's make a judgment call, right? Or go with your gut. And I just didn't feel at the time I could trust my gut.

Fast forward to now. Orchestrator, right? More senior leader. I still have those moments where I want more, but [00:13:00] I'm willing to make decisions and obviously have to do that on a regular basis. So the muscle though, that I started to build even as a fellow and then quickly developed was really, let's go beyond trusting your gut and say, trust your colleagues, right?

So do you have the right people at the table? Are you asking the right questions? As an administrator. You are not and should not, I like to say, be the smartest person in the room, right? You are not gonna have the clinical expertise. You are not going to have. Certain pieces of information, but what you can do is be the facilitator and sit in the middle of all of that and hear the different perspectives and find a way forward.

And that's often where I feel like we add the most value. So that's the skillset I learned early and have had a chance to hone. And I'll. Put a plugin. We have a rotational model here at Mayo for administrators. We don't stay in one specialty and grow up and move up through a career ladder. So I've supported pulmonary and critical care, endocrinology, clinical ethics, critical [00:14:00] care, I talked about that earlier.

Telemedicine, our enterprise hospital practice, right? Lots of different hats. Lots of different roles. And in each of those. Making a decision without all the information looks a little different so you just get better and better. Let me come back to decision making in the hospital and what role data plays for me and my team.

Again, I like this question for a few reasons. I. But I have a couple of members of my team that have really made data available at our fingertips, so to speak. And making that not only possible, but really an integrated part of our hospital operations. We are fortunate, as I said earlier, to have a dedicated team.

So this is one of those areas, hospital data and analytics, meaning for Rochester Hospital. I have a talented team and this is what they think about all day, every day. So this team was really built actually post COVID with an eye toward how much our hospital practice needs to evolve and how best to really describe [00:15:00] the incredible work we're doing, the transformation that's happening, all kind of building to our 23rd.

2030, bold forward strategic plan as an organization. So I have an operations administrator who reports directly to me, core member of my team, and this individual is embedded in all of our hospital leadership meetings. So I think this is a really critical piece. Where do you plug in the data? Where do you plug in the people responsible for delivering the data and getting them at the forefront of those critical discussions?

I think that has been so helpful for us. So this individual and actually multiple individuals, administrator, director on down we want them right there at the table hearing the most important discussions, concerns, opportunities for improvement, be part of creating our priorities for the year. Three years, five years.

And just again, a core member of our daily operations team. So for these reasons, I do think we're in a better place than we've ever been. And we're providing [00:16:00] data on a service line level, or we think of things a lot of times on a unit based level, right? It's just how we're organized in the hospital.

But like every hospital leadership team, we are regularly looking at our performance through metrics, right? Length of stay, mortality, payer mix, readmission rate. Every hospital administrator is gonna talk about those. But as I mentioned, we've also challenged this team and challenged ourselves to say.

We've gotta come up with some unique ways to describe our practice and how we're working to innovate or transform. So some of the new metrics that we start to talk about are census turnover. How many times on average does every bed in this hospital turnover on a monthly basis? Additionally, we've created something around a medically ready to discharge date, which allows us to calculate what we like to call opportunity days, meaning a patient's ready to discharge, no medical reason to continue to be in the hospital.

How many days past that [00:17:00] point did we care for them before they were able to be transported? Go home, sniff, right? Somewhere in between. Post COVID during and post COVID, we were averaging. More than 130 patients a day on our discharge delay list. And we have been able to cut that down

Dr. Andrew Hutson: so that meant 130 patients stayed longer than anticipated or should have stayed which meant a bed was consumed when it could have been freed up.

Is that kind of a way to think about that?

Lindsey Lehman: Said.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: Thank you.

Lindsey Lehman: So through a lot of different work, right? There's a lot of factors within this. Sure. Discharge milestones, transitional care offerings. Increasing, our usage of those programs, just being creative and how we support patients right when they're ready to go home or leave the hospital.

But I truly think it's being able to share that information at the service line level with service line leadership, say. This is where we are. Let's set a goal together and seeing the progress made because that data is [00:18:00] right with them. And it's describing the practice accurately, right? So we've always given them some level of data, but we've worked with them to say, what's unique about your practice?

What is it represented? And this team has really been responsive to those needs. And so all of that really has come together to help us make significant improvement in some of these most important areas.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: That's amazing. So I want to try to recap all those different scenarios that you shared. And I'm gonna try to put it in the lens of a book that I read over the weekend called the Four Disciplines of Execution.

'cause it seemed like you hit on a lot of those as you were walking through those decision making. So the first is access. The access that folks have to the data is critical. And then there's the accuracy. The accuracy of those data points that they're able to pull in are gonna be critical, which seems obvious, but also can be hard to do.

Wouldn't you think? Like accuracy just isn't, just doesn't [00:19:00] happen always. And then it sounds like you spend a lot of time evaluating leading and lagging metrics. So the lagging would be, here's the, we want to improve our patient turnover success. And then we were able to work together as a team to say, okay, what of those metrics create that outcome?

You mentioned all the way down to a discharge form is being filled out correctly. And if we're able to do those things, those leading things, and that creates the outcome. That we're looking for. And the level of coordination of conducting the symphony of different disciplines to make that happen for a patient is no small feat.

So I'm wondering on other organizations we've talked to, and you and I have studied and even witnessed ourselves, the. [00:20:00] Ease of access, not only to the data collection being able to surface it at the right time at the right place, but then also the discipline that comes with actually using that data to then make an informed decision is no, is Mayo uniquely positioned in its culture to facilitate that level of adoption with data at the, in the care that they provide.

Lindsey Lehman: I think Mayo Clinic has worked hard. To create that type of culture. And again, I'll go back to it's a work in progress. So I do think there are some things that we've done. I'm gonna cite, Dr. Farah's ability to look into the future several years ago and say, we need the Mayo Clinic platform, to allow us to harness the power of data and not just Mayo Clinic data. But data from. Many healthcare organizations, [00:21:00] which is truly going to allow us to have insight, right? And use that data in ways that, we have not been able to imagine up to this point. So

Dr. Andrew Hutson: now that's interesting. So I wanted to double click on that if I could.

Someone a couple years ago set out a vision that says we're gonna have this data platform, and not only are we gonna use and know what we know, but we're gonna incorporate stuff outside. Of our organization. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I'm not sure what you can share, but what are those external data points that are being pulled in to influence the quality of your decisions?

Lindsey Lehman: Yeah. I don't know how deep on this I can or should go.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: That's fair. That's fair.

Lindsey Lehman: I'm not an expert. I just wanna to say that, but let me share. From my perspective as a practice administrator, and I just wanted to use this as an example because to your question, I believe we've made significant investment.

We want to be right. An organization that has the culture and really this pervasive [00:22:00] mindset of data-driven decisions. And I think we've been that for a long time. This is just a most recent example, but the Mayo Clinic platform is a way of bringing together, as I said, the largest, one of the largest data sets that has existed for the purpose of using that to advance the science right?

And really look at that individualized level of care. What do we know about our patients? We see a great future and vision for knowing significantly more about our patients with their permission and support just at a baseline. And we believe that will allow us to change care in a way that really has not been possible because we don't know.

Mr. Jones preference for lighting and sound or things that the home environment or other environments may have provided that we can account for? I'll speak specific to the hospital. But I'll just say the big focus here is on keeping this data safe and secure. There is nothing more important to us than our patients.

Trust and data is a big [00:23:00] part of that. And as we have more data the responsibility only grows. So I'll just say back to the Mayo Clinic platform and really. Anyway, Mayo Clinic data, we, the biggest part of our investment is in how we keep it secure. We can share it safely, right? And again, with permission.

But behind the scenes, I would say, I don't think it's well understood. I'm not even sure I fully understand how hard we have worked, right? Just to go to the nth degree to keep that data safe and still allow ourselves to transform. That, it's that balance right between productivity and security that's constantly out there.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: That's real. And so first of all, thank you for all those who are listening that keeps that data secure. I'm sure your patients love you for it. Let's switch gears a little bit as we get towards the end of our session. I want, let's go pure into hypothetical. Okay. So I'm gonna prompt us here real quick and would love your thoughts.

I was flying out to DC a couple weeks ago and I got to sit [00:24:00] next to a physician a surgeon, in fact that's out at Barnes here in St. Louis. And I asked her about the use of AI in her practice and I got an interesting answer that. It surprised me, frankly, AI will never come into surgery. There is zero chance that AI could do what we do, and we started to dissect that more.

And I don't know that we came out on the same side. Of that argument after we started to peel away. What is it that's so unique that AI could never replicate? Maybe it doesn't now, but could never, so I was curious on your. Opinion since none of this is real the data that's being collected and the introduction of these generative AI models of for diagnosis or even [00:25:00] performing specific activities, what, where do you imagine that's gonna go in the future?

Lindsey Lehman: In my opinion, and I'll speak just for myself here I really don't see. Those type of limitations. In fact I think we have to find ways to overcome our natural instinct, right? In healthcare for very good reasons, right? To protect our patients, to protect their data. A lot of what we just hit on, but if we really think about what generative AI can unlock for us and the age old problems that exist in healthcare, I don't think we can afford to just say.

We're never gonna bring this into X part of the practice. I'll give one specific example for us here at Mayo. The decision was made for our AI efforts to be distributed across all parts of the organization. So meaning there is no one AI office that rules all. There is an automation hub, there are groups with [00:26:00] AI in the title, but this was done very intentionally to help us move more quickly and try things.

Across as many parts of the organization as possible. Now, again, that probably has as much to do with our size and scale, but I, I think that holds true for a lot of organizations because there's so much we don't know. And so trying to organize ourselves and give permission to step here or try this, it won't allow us to move forward with that benefit to our patients and our staff, especially.

Mind. So we currently have more than 300 algorithms in use, but the focus if we're gonna let everybody go off and try things, we have to have a very rigorous review process prior to integrating them directly within our processes and workflows. And that, again, just back to the investment we've made as an organization to our mindfulness.

This certainly has its benefits, this approach on the front end in terms of how quickly and easily we can try new ideas. But on the backend. This means, we can have work in so many different [00:27:00] parts of the organization and actually not even know necessarily where we're having success early on.

Word will spread, right? If things are working well, if there's, kind of a. Best practice, if you will, being developed. You do tend to hear about it, but occasionally, my team or one of our teams will find out something quite a bit later or quite, further down the road than we would like or felt that we could have made progress in the meantime.

So it's really that old adage of, you want to go quickly, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. And I believe. That is a big part of our role as leaders in this environment where there's so much new, there's so much pace to what's happening and it changes all the time. How do we bring back this type of information to our teams and help connect them to what others are doing?

And that's inside your organization, but outside your organization. So a again, the last thing I'll mention is just. Carving out the time to talk [00:28:00] about this, right? Collaborate, bring the team together collectively. Brainstorm I mentioned earlier we're a matrix organization. We believe we are at our best.

When all the right stakeholders that are at the table, we are making consensus decisions, right? Healthy dialogue and debate. Not afraid to push back. But not leaving people out either in the interest of kind of expediency. So very much that balance of moving forward quickly, but moving forward together and in the right way.

So I, I think AI education, investment and kind of a foundation of understanding is only, going to unlock more potential for us.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: Thank you for sharing that Great perspective. On how Mayo is taking a distributed approach for how to best leverage AI in a responsible way, but also with a bit of speed and curiosity.

I [00:29:00] think that was the major difference between your take on the situation and the one that I heard from my friend on the airplane is that there's gonna be some folks that are in the camp. Where the application of these new things is seen as so far away from the nuance of what I do, that there is no possible scenario where it could impact my work or replace certain aspects or even entire aspects of our care delivery versus I'm not sure.

Yeah, and certainly there's capabilities today, but I know those are gonna change and I'm gonna keep an open mind towards what those are, and we're gonna go find out where this works well and where it doesn't. And I think the world's gonna be looking towards Mayo as a leader of this distributed model that they can learn from and really see [00:30:00] with Mayo's high thresholds and standards.

They start to see the value of including some of these new technologies to help with decision making and data integration with all the different things that have to be connected.

Lindsey Lehman: I think you captured that well. If I could just maybe a few things to, to add.

Dr. Andrew Hutson: Take us home, final thoughts.

Lindsey Lehman: To your friend on the airplane.

Again, I just like to, be straightforward that, we again, resources, investment, opportunity to have a divergent approach that is a privileged position to be in. I believe Mayo Clinics worked hard to be there, but. Recognize, not every organization is truly able to have even that, some of that conversation.

So yes, I believe we will try a lot of things that don't work. But I believe having the mindset, or you referred earlier to our culture, I believe we work really hard to say focus on the possibility. Focus on the future vision. What [00:31:00] could be, and let's see if the pros outweigh the cons. What are the risks?

You have to understand the risks. We've talked a lot about balancing the responsibility that can never be off the table with this conversation, right? Data gen, ai, ai, there's so much within that. The ethics of it, right? The use and approach. And the final thing I would say. Whether it's ai, gen, ai, other automation opportunities, robotics, anything in that space, human in the loop.

Not words that I've yet had a chance to put in any of my answers, but so essential. Yes. We do not see these technologies replacing humans. In fact, we see it as the opposite. It's all about augmenting. And freeing them up to do what only they can do. And that is what gets me excited about that future vision because that is the patient care.

We are all here to provide the human side of healthcare. It's everything we talk about [00:32:00] right from so many different perspectives. That's what I believe if done correctly, if tied to all the right reasons I believe that we will be able to do that and that it will be really hard not to see. The benefit and the focus, the patient-centered focus

Dr. Andrew Hutson: I could have asked for a better mic drop moment.

So thank you so much for sharing your insight and your perspective and your history coming in. I know everybody's gonna benefit from hearing more from Lindsay. We'd love to have you back. We'd love to share more about how you're thinking about the various cross departmental collaborations and different.

Types of application for data, diving deeper into some of these topics when we speak again. So thank you so much for taking time with us today.

Lindsey Lehman: Thanks for the opportunity. Those who work with me and know me best, know I rarely agree to talk this long for this amount of time because I would prefer that the focus is not on me.

But I don't have it [00:33:00] figured out. We don't have it figured out. It's exciting to think about all that is still to come in this space, so thanks for giving me the chance to talk about it.

Emily Nava: Good. Thank you so much. And that wraps up another episode of The Interconnectedness of Things. If you liked what you heard, don't forget to follow, subscribe, share this episode with your network.

We've got a lot more conversations coming your way and maybe even a part two with Lindsay. Who knows? But. In any case, you won't wanna miss 'em. So thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you next time.